Open Discussion on SC

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by 4xdblack, Feb 6, 2017.

  1. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    No it's not. Framing a topic is a good thing because it makes it clear what the thread should be about and keeps it to the actual debate/topic at hand.

    No one is stopping you from opening a new thread for a related, but totally different topic. Therefore, we are not oppressing your right to talk about any topic you like, at all.

    When Shi removed posts last night, all of them were breaking basic forum rules. We don't delete valid posts. We have the ability to select individual posts that are following a different path and move them into a brand new thread if those posts are actually part of a new but relatively decent discussion worthy of continuing. If it's flaming and nonsense such as the ones that were deleted by Shi, they will certainly be removed.
     
  2. KT Samurai

    KT Samurai The Peacemaker
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    I'd like to just chime in here and say that we're taking this pretty seriously and making some hard decisions on how to deal with this situation. We, or at least I, are not immune to criticism in this regard and behaviour can be improved across the board so that's being taken into account as well.

    Expect a more formal announcement from me in the coming days.
     
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  3. Shi

    Shi The Aspirer
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    I'm going to be absolutely candid here, no filters on my thoughts and opinion:

    The fact that you think that way actually highlights the problem most, if not all people have with you in CE.
    The fact that you're clearly unwilling to contribute to a solution, let alone have shown any if at all, some empathy to the members around you and those who are trying to make it better shows that you're more of a problem than you are a part of a solution.

    This thread is not only a monument that you've erected, built with the fallacies of your opinions and prime examples of your unwillingness to accept that you're not helping.

    So far, you've disregarded staff and members.
    You've actively antagonized not only those who have pointed out to you that you're clearly mistaken on what is going on, you've pretty much ignored the fact that most members in this thread have told you that you're a problem and that most people don't want to participate in CE because you are one of those people who have engaged in a behavior that makes it apparent to them that they don't want to be a part of it.

    In terms of decency,

    I am giving you every opportunity to see that you're one of the reasons, if not the biggest reason why CE is such a travesty.
    As of now, this entire thread is about your ego against everyone else.

    The right way in going about handling all of this is to simply remove you from CE so that the rest of us can have a decent conversation without someone coming in, posting a false dichotomy, creating strawman arguments, spinning topics, sensationalizing them and antagonizing other users because they don't share your view point.

    I'm literally giving you the chance to understand how many lines have figuratively been crossed that the staff has considered this as a high priority. If you think I'm being hard, you should see some of the discussions at hand: I'm the voice of reason.
     
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  4. 4xdblack

    4xdblack Accomplished Booty-Cop
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    I am not unwilling. That was the point of this whole thread, to come up with a better solution. But in order to have a solution there has to first be an agreement that there is a problem. People are toxic on political threads, that's an obvious problem that we can all agree on. But I believe that something just as toxic is starting to happen and we should address it before it becomes a serious problem. But instead of even acknowledging the thought, both you and shannon have shifted the attention back onto the users. Or more specifically.. me

    A solution I would offer is instead of regulating speech the way you are beginning to do.. start rolling out infractions to those who are being dicks or who are preventing healthy conversation. But that is assuming that the staff can remain completely objective about it, which I don't think the current administration of this forum can be (not including the moderation staff) since most of you are directly involved in the CE section yourselves.

    You mean like how you completely disregarded every point I've made because:

    You do realize that is an ad hominem right? What? All my points are suddenly invalid because of what I've done in the past? Make no mistake, I have not once suggested that I haven't contributed to the issues in CE. In fact I openly admitted it to shannon, and multiple times in this thread. But that doesn't invalidate anything I've said so far, but apparently to you it does.

    I appreciate it. I will also try to self reflect and contribute to healthy conversation from now on.
     
  5. Harlequinn

    Harlequinn Edgy Teenager
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    This feels a tad harsh...
     
  6. Struggler

    Struggler Sapient Meat
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    The call for more empathy is a big part of the problem here. Judgements on what is and isn't okay is influenced far too much by emotion. Discussions are already too much of a circlejerk without staff making veiled threats against people they disagree with.
     
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  7. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    Wow, 4xD. I don't know if you realise this or not, but you are doing the exact same thing here that you do in CE.

    While Shi was indeed harsh, nothing he said in there was a lie. You might not be the only person contributing to the problems, but you certainly are one of the most prominent ones. The problem is that you're not willing to admit that you need to change. Others involved have admitted that they need to try.
     
  8. 4xdblack

    4xdblack Accomplished Booty-Cop
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    you mean like:

     
  9. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    Yes, you say this, then deflect back to the same thing without taking what anyone has said here into account. That's just the same old all over again.

    I have posted several times stating that we're not censoring discussion, yet you choose to ignore this completely. Removing flame posts and telling people to stay on topic is not taking away anyone's freedom of discussion.

    Again, you're treating this like a CE thread and forcing us to parrot our own posts.
     
  10. ThisGuy

    ThisGuy Kin of the Cosmos
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    You have a user voicing a concern over objectivity when handling political topics and somehow the response is "If a person can't respect that this forum has a multitude of nationalities and races here, then they will get in trouble. Discrimination of any kind isn't going to go down well. Thing is, free speech applies to American laws, but this forum isn't a country, therefore, one can have very toxic opinions, but we don't have to listen to them, or host them while they do it."

    I don't understand this response in regards to 4XD's commentary. Who's discriminating in CE based on gender, race, or nationality? There have been a lot of heated exchanges but I have yet to witness outright discriminatory behavior.

    It's pretty clear the staff have a mutually shared political bias that leaks into moderating the CE threads. The suggestion here is to be more objective if you're serious about facilitating discussion. If you're not then either get rid of the section or slap it with a massive disclaimer that you only give a shit about YOUR political views and that anyone who doesn't agree is some kind of nazi extremist to be lynched on sight. Right now it's a place for people to dump their shit at on eachother instead of a reasonable effort to dig through facts and come to a mutual understanding.

    Here we have staff complaining about specific users shitting up CE and in fact everyone, including staff, have been responsible for the off walls commentary that noone else would get away with.

    I'm all for discussing ho we handle CE as a community. I think closing CE is a bad idea, discussing things we disagree on is probably the most important tool that we have to invest in ourselves. I'm not going to say this is a requirement for SC, I have no idea what plans KT has in store or what direction he wants to go in. I like that we have an opportunity that many boards are ill afforded, it's definitely hard to handle because much of the discussion gets real emotional real quick.
     
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  11. 4xdblack

    4xdblack Accomplished Booty-Cop
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    Likewise, I feel that you've completely ignored the part where I stated multiple times that I am not saying we at that stage yet. I am saying that we are being put on the same road.

    If you really were censoring discussion, then this thread would have been deleted. I am not saying that you already are, I am saying that you are beginning to. And if it continues like this, it will not be healthy for the CE section or the forum.

    I am not ignoring you, but are you ignoring me?
     
  12. ThisGuy

    ThisGuy Kin of the Cosmos
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    I do think an open community discussion about how to handle CE is better than "we're talking about it behind the scenes," that's not to shit on anyone or imply anything.
     
  13. Shi

    Shi The Aspirer
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    The problem that we're facing now is that no matter what staff does is going to be seen as "right".

    Our inaction is a cause of concern.
    Our action is a cause of concern.

    I bring up the fact that there are problem users, but it's me being harsh.
    I bring up the fact that we've been discussing at length how not to do the wrong thing, and it's us being secretive and non-transparent.

    You guys don't like it when we sugar coat stuff and apparently, you guys don't like it when we're being real with you guys too.

    If we want to really be objective and transparent, here is what is on the table:

    1. Members of staff has expressed that there are users who are considered "problem" users. I can name every single one of you. I have actively suggested not to take action because by and large, Staff is liberal. That's no secret and we're not so dumb as to think that wouldn't cause a problem.
    2. Members of staff has expressed that they would rather close down CE because it's just a "problem" overall, so why even have it? I've suggested not to close it down but to enforce SC rules, because we're lenient. Shannon says we're not lenient. We agreed to disagree.
    3. Members of staff want to increase our active focus in that section so that we can reduce toxicity. Unfortunately, only the admins are really well versed in said topics and we're the only ones who can really moderate it properly.

    So you guys have a choice:
    You can either
    A) Let staff determine the best course of action, which by and large, will probably swing closer to the left. As a group, we're going to rule in favor of the majority. Thus far, the majority seem to be in favor of us enforcing CE harder.
    B) Let a neutral party who is largely independent (myself) to be as impartial as possible so that everyone has a fair chance.
    C) We can close the section down
    D) We can simply ban every user that we've flagged as a problem

    Or.
    I don't know.

    It may be fucking crazy... but simply behave courteously and show some empathy and we all can live happily.

    But because I'm a realist and I know that's an impossibility, here's my honest opinion on the matter:
    I'm on the side of what the populace wants and generally speaking, that ideal is shared with staff.
    I much rather enforce rules and make sure as many people are happy as possible as opposed to making all of you happy.

    If Staff is going to fall on the side of being wrong, regardless of what we do.
    I think I'm going to take the best of a bad position.

    So here's me enforcing the rules. Whether you like it or not.
     
  14. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    @Shi Hey, I never said we're not lenient. Smacking down on CE I guess is the part where were I was like "no more too nice mods" :p. I did say we've been slack. I guess I upset certain people here because I have the same thinking you do. I think we're all in agreement on this.:)

    Edit: Thisguy we haven't been secretive at all. It would be dumb to not discuss how to approach it before going public. I wasn't secretive when I put a sticky in CE. In fact, this thread strangely appeared just as a neutral staff member who does not post in CE had suggested to start a public topic on it. We had agreed for him to do that.

    It's clear now that nothing we do will be the right decision, so agree 100% with Shi.
     
    #34 Shannon Apple, Feb 7, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2017
  15. 4xdblack

    4xdblack Accomplished Booty-Cop
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    Not trying to be antagonistic here, but if I believed that you could be impartial, I wouldn't have made this thread. But yes, that would be the optimal solution in my opinion.

    That is the burden of being the authority figure for any community. But I do apologize for making things difficult for you and the rest of the staff. I know that I have been a problem in the past and I am working to better myself. But there have been some things that were said that has made me deeply concerned about the future of SC, enough so that I decided to make this thread despite knowing that it wouldn't be well received. So I apologize for my faults, and I hope you can forgive me, as well as consider my points.
     
  16. ThisGuy

    ThisGuy Kin of the Cosmos
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    woweezowee

    You both missed me being sincere and used it for ammunition. Furthermore the CE sticky is doesn't substitute for this thread, it's not an open discussion. Someone voiced an opinion that staff weren't being fair in their moderation and the response wash to lash out and ultimately end up at "we're boned either way so screw you guys."

    Well ok then, whatever you want. I mean what can anyone say now? This thread is an eerie reflection of what goes on in CE.

    I guess I'll go back to smashing that motherfugging like button on all the people who want to dump their collective purses out on the board.
     
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  17. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    Tova, not sure where you see the hostility in my post. I was. Just stating how it was. Wasn't meant to be taken under that context.
     
  18. Dunn x Dolo

    Dunn x Dolo King of the Chatroom
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    I am not the smartest guy on the block but even I can see that this is simple.

    "Stop Getting butthurt when somebody doesn't agree with you, Respect another users opinion, Opinions are not facts, and keep the topic about the topic."

    What the fuck is so hard about grasping that? Let me break it down then.

    1.) Stop getting Butthurt when somebody doesn't agree with you.

    We are all not the same. That is life. Billions of people in this world and not everybody is going to think the way you do. Is that a reason to cry and whine about it? Do you really need to pms because I don't agree with what you said? Fuck No. There is such a thing as "Agree to Disagree."

    2.) Respect another users opinion.

    Yoda thinks SAO is the greatest thing in the world. I think its shit. Am I going to flame, and berate yoda because he thinks that? No. More power to him. We just have different opinions on the matter and we leave it at that. See how mature that was? No feelings involved and no name calling. Its not hard to do.

    3.) Opinions are not facts.

    I think spiders don't do shit for society and need to be wiped from the face of the earth. Is what I said a fact? Nope. As much as I wish it were, its not. A quick research will tell you that spiders actually help the earth in some ways regardless of how much I hate them. A proven statement is a fact. Your feelings on something may or may not be. If you don't have the evidence to back up your claim, then its an opinion. Until you provide evidence to back up your claim, it will always be an opinion and should be treated as one.

    4.) Keep the Topic about the topic

    Topic says "10 Ways to be as Awesome as Dunndolo." So lets talk about those 10 ways and your thoughts on them. Guy comes in and says, "Dunndolo doesn't like trump and doesn't support him." This is off topic. This has nothing to do with the topic you just wasted a post in. If you want to discuss then create a new topic about that. That way you don't derail the topic talking about something that doesn't have anything to do with said topic and everybody will be happy. Not a hard task.

    Follow these steps and we will be all gravy. You're welcome.
     
  19. Scruffie

    Scruffie Pro Tarantula Bro-Fister
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    All the disagreement aside, and whether people believe everyone stayed on topic or not, there is a common trend in this thread... for one reason or another everyone here thinks there is a problem in the CE section.

    While this thread hasn't really gone in its intended direction, and has instead started to slide into the kind of shit storm and blame assigning we see a lot in the CE section, good can come of it. People's issues are being laid out on the table, and it is an open discussion between staff and members.

    There's the potential to sift through it all and perhaps find a solution to these issues.

    Or you know, we could just discuss why @4xdblack is so terrible and how he could be less terrible in the future... though we've exhausted that topic by now, surely?
     
  20. Kuze

    Kuze Heaven's not enough
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    Hey, can I derail this thread and talk about fire extinguishers now? No?
     
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