Action Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018)

Discussion in 'Western Animation' started by ReymousFumes, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Plot: "Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse" introduces Brooklyn teen Miles Morales, and the limitless possibilities of the Spider-Verse, where more than one can wear the mask.
    Release Date: 13 December 2018
    Directors: Peter Ramsey, Rodney Rothman and Robert Persichetti Jr.
    Screenplay: Phil Lord
    Starring:

    Miles Morales – Shameik Moore
    Peter Parker – Jake Johnson
    Gwen Stacy / Spider-Gwen – Hailee Steinfeld
    May Parker – Lily Tomlin
    Jefferson Davis (Miles’ Father) – Brian Tyree
    Rio Morales (Miles’ Mother) – Luna Lauren Velez
    Aaron Davis / Prowler (Miles' Uncle) – Mahershala Ali
    Wilson Fisk / Kingpin – Liev Schreiber

    Not big on the idea of Spider-Gwen (or Spider-Verse), and Peter's voice sounds kinda lame (lacking that cheerful and energetic tone), but the rest of it and the concept of the movie itself already look more interesting than Spider-Man: Homecoming ever did (especially with the appearance of adult Peter, probably the oldest incarnation of the character that's ever appeared on-screen). It also looks like a very fun movie full of quips and wit. Might check out the movie, but I'll wait for the reviews first.
     
    #1 ReymousFumes, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  2. Koda

    Koda Senior Member

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    I'm excited for the spider-verse it was a really cool concept when reading the comics
     
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  3. Interest1ng

    Interest1ng SC's AmbASSador.... MAWP!!!

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    I don't mind the spider-verse. I just don't think that it will get the same response that a live-action Spidey Film would have. Definitely a great way to open the current MCU without affecting the current Time-Line I suppose.
     
  4. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    Sean, you cynic. You're VERY wrong. :p This film is trending across social media all day. It is generating so much hype right now.
     
  5. Interest1ng

    Interest1ng SC's AmbASSador.... MAWP!!!

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    Oh I am not a cynic. I am excited for it and can't wait. I showed my son the trailer as soon as it came out. I am just saying that when it comes actual release date for this movie the animated films don't always get the same Day 1 numbers that their LA Counterparts do.
     
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  6. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Yeah, I don't doubt it, especially when it's not Pixar or Disney. Sony isn't exactly a trusted brand these days.
     
  7. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    I think this one is going to be different. I have never been interested in one of the animated films before, BUT, I want to see this one, just look at the artwork, it's fabulous.
     
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  8. KT Samurai

    KT Samurai The Peacemaker
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    Every still of this trailer is a work of art, I cannot wait to see this.
     
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  9. Oh Snape

    Oh Snape House Bantsratheon
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    This is better than Spider Man (who shouldn't be your fave Superhero unless you're under 13). Hopefully this kind of animation becomes more wide spread.
     
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  10. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Okay, now THAT is cynical. :rolleyes:
     
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  11. Novaire

    Novaire Serial Editor
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    Seems like they're being completely half-hearted in committing to the Spider-Verse, which feels pointless. If you're gonna do it, do it big. I wanna see Kaine, Ben, O'Hara, and Takuya, not the three that I can find anywhere. I also find the Miles Morales character incredibly dull, so I can't say that I'm excited to see a film that centers on him.

    I like Gwen, and the animation is nice, but I just can't see this touching Homecoming - which is by far the best Spider-Man film, fight me.
     
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  12. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    It's Sony. Of course it's half-hearted and pandering to the popular crowd (which Spider-Gwen and Miles Morales belong to currently). Profit. Cha-ching. All that good stuff. I agree on seeing Kaine and O'Hara though, not to mention Takuya, but considering how Slott
    killed off all three of them
    in Spider-Verse, I'm kinda glad they never got involved in this. I hated Spider-Verse because so many good characters got 'dropped' because Marvel wanted to clean up all the Spider-Men running around out there, including fan-favorite Mayday Spider-Girl who already had a 'happy ending' of her own in MC2.

    After how conventional of a story Homecoming felt like, almost anything could have been more entertaining than that for me. Also, Spider-Man 2 is the better Spider-Man film because it actually tells you everything you need to know about the character better than Homecoming. Maybe not the better film in general depending on your perspective, but definitely the better film that characterizes Spider-Man more accurately.
     
    #12 ReymousFumes, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  13. Novaire

    Novaire Serial Editor
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    I think Homecoming actually does a better job of expressing Peter's core character traits overall, and that he's actually depicted more faithfully based on the intentions of the original run than in the first trilogy's version. Peter Parker is a teenager and a geek, he struggles with insecurity and loneliness, among other issues, but he isn't completely defined by that. He's also someone with a quick wit, a great sense of humor and perfect comedic timing. Any semblance of that it is sorely lacking in the original trilogy - frankly, I can't remember a single joke that came out of Tobey's mouth in any of the films, and after a Youtube search, I still wasn't able to find much of anything. It goes much further into the dark side of Peter's personality than Homecoming, no doubt, but I feel that it completely lost the other side of his character.

    For the record, I do also like Spider-Man 2, but I find Homecoming to be the better package. I'll take that car scene over the other five films any day of the week. :p Still, I'm relatively happy with all three sets of Spider-Man films, there are ups and downs, but I think for a series that started with three films and has been rebooted twice they've done a solid job of keeping things interesting. They aren't all great, but they've avoided stepping on each other's coattails most of the time, and have had a solid run of not re-using villains, other than Goblin, which is fair enough, I guess. Mysterio is my personal favorite from his cavalcade of adversaries, and he is by definition the perfect villain for a film, so I'm quite excited for Homecoming 2.
     
    #13 Novaire, Jun 6, 2018
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  14. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Nope. Totally disagreed. :p

    Stan Lee created Spider-Man because he wanted a superhero with problems, so YES, he was defined by that. His insecurity and loneliness were not the focus of Spider-Man 2 and definitely not the characterization I was referring to. Rather, it's the existence of problems constantly barraging his life that brought out the true characterization of Spider-Man - his perseverance, his will to never give up, and what is probably the most important and defining characteristic of Spider-Man of all, self-sacrifice. He sacrificed his own happiness to be the responsible man his uncle wanted him to be, which Spider-Man 2 showed magnificently when he chose to break up with MJ by his own decision. There was even an entire soundtrack in the movie dedicated to this theme titled "Hold On"!

    Homecoming merely rehashed the same idea, and not even that well either. I mentioned before that the movie didn't deserve the "If This Be My Destiny" scene because I felt like it didn't earn it. Peter spent the whole time in the movie being a irresponsible kid who skipped detention and skipped class because he wanted to prove something of himself the entire movie, that he's somebody worthy of attention to Tony Stark. Therefore, that scene where he held up the concrete debris? Unearned. He wasn't persevering because it was the right thing to do; he wanted to prove that he's a somebody, a real hero worthy of Spider-Man's name.

    Conflict is the key to bringing out the true nature of your character, and a lack of conflict in Homecoming (or largely lack of conflict anyway) was why it was so boring to me, because we didn't learn anything new about Peter we didn't already know. I can't tell you how important it is for a story like Spider-Man to have conflict be a constant factor, because the greater the conflict there is, the greater the heroism and perseverance of Peter Parker.

    And you want to know something else in relations to conflict? I hate the Stark suit! It dampens the character of Spider-Man, that he's just a somewhat strong guy in a homemade pajamas! Not some high-tech suit that does everything for him! It's not only contradictory to the character of Spider-Man, it kept Spidey from displaying his wit and skills as a combatant!

    For the record, his quipping? Superficial (much like the mechanical web-shooters meant to serve as a lazy plot-device in the comics by the way). If you think that Tobey's lack of jokes was a misinterpretation of the character, then you're missing the point of Spider-Man. Tobey was still a light-hearted person in Spider-Man 2 in spite of a lack of quippage. The "joking" is such a superficial factor that's meant to convey the same point about Peter's optimism anyway. He wasn't some dark and brooding antihero like Bruce Wayne, so that flippant and optimistic attitude was still accurately portrayed. There was even a "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" sequence! How was that not the optimistic Peter Parker we always knew.

    Oh yeah, and there's this:

    Beats out the Vulture fight in Homecoming any day.

    Beyond anything else, I think the major thing that bothered me about Homecoming was character growth. Before Homecoming, Peter was already doing his Spider-Man thing. The conflict in Homecoming, particularly the scene where he had to lift up the concrete, was that his high-tech suit was taken away from him, and that's why he had to prove himself worthy even without the suit... except that he already did before Tony arrived in his life. So he wound up back in the very same place he started out to begin with. There's not much growth in that.

    Compare this to Spider-Man 2. Peter began his life still meeting up with Mary Jane while juggling with his life as Spider-Man. By the third act, he was ready to forfeit his happiness with Mary Jane because he knows of his bigger responsibilities. Character growth, because there's a change here in character priorities. The fact that he "gets the girl" at the end doesn't change the fact that he was ready to give up his own happiness for his bigger responsibility.

    This character growth all stems from this very scene:

    The burning building. "Am I not supposed to have what I want?" That personal conflict of putting his own happiness over the lives of others. THAT is what Spider-Man is about, whether if our own personal responsibility is as important as our responsibility to help others, and Spider-Man 2 is an amazing movie that portrays such self-sacrifice far better than Homecoming did, because Homecoming, at its core, was not about having a message, but rather, it's to set the foundation of Spider-Man in the future of MCU.

    You know what, I'm just going to let someone else explain this much better than I could:
     
    #14 ReymousFumes, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
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  15. Novaire

    Novaire Serial Editor
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    My choice of words wasn't exactly conducive to the point that I was trying to make. I said that Peter's character isn't defined by his faults, but in this case, it's a little harder to describe because the character of Peter Parker is literally defined by his insecurities, but I meant it in a figurative sense. Regardless of the melodrama that enters his life, he still reins it in for the time being so that he can persist forward for the sake of others, as well as himself. We actually don't have a disagreement here, it was just my phrasing that gave it that appearance. Oops. :oops:

    That's kind of the point of Spider-Man, and certainly that of this depiction - he is a teenager. Teenagers are irresponsible, and they do make mistakes. The Spider-Man of Homecoming is still someone who is dealing with minor crimes and accidents, not someone who is fighting a lot of supervillains. In a very literal sense, heroes are forged through both their heroics and their misgivings, they are not simply born as such. The rubble scene isn't a one-for-one adaptation because it's simply not set up to be, but it still serves a similar purpose, and it gets the intended idea across, that being perseverance through adversity for the sake of others. The film is about Peter learning to become a real hero, and to that end, the scene serves fittingly as the thematic climax.

    Regardless of whether one likes Spidey's tendency to make light of a situation, it's still a core pillar of the character. To dismiss that tendency as just superficial undermines sixty years of character structure that has been maintained by writer after writer in most every iteration. It serves a purpose and helps to set and develop the tone of his stories, as well as provide some levity and fun for the reader. In the films, he might be portrayed as optimistic in a broader sense, but it does not read as comic accurate. It's similar to how Superman is written in the Man of Steel franchise. If you take away the character's humanitarianism and replace it with some extra moping and a vague sense of righteousness, how much is really left of what was intended for the character?
     
  16. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Oh my god, STOP! The defining trait about Spider-Man ISN'T remotely related to being a teenager.

    You want to know why Stan Lee named him "Spider-Man" instead of "Spider-Boy"? Because he has always intended for Peter Parker to grow up and be married. Go look at Stan Lee's newspaper strip (still ongoing 'till about 2016, I think), where a fully adult Peter Parker was married to Mary Jane. People need to stop having this permeated idea that Spider-Man's defining trait is his age. It's not. That's a superficial factor that was circumstantial and convenient to the actual defining trait Stan wanted to tell at the time, a superhero with problems. And a melodramatic soap opera was simply the easiest way to do that.

    And I highly disagree with your "heroes forged through their heroics" statement. If anything, Spider-Man 2 managed to define this statement far better than Homecoming did. I edited my previous post a lot, as you can see, but go read the part about character growth again near the end, the one about the burning building. Peter's portrayal in that movie showed that he was willing to sacrifice his happiness for the sake of something more important, his role as Spider-Man. Because the moment he sacrificed the latter, somebody died in a burning building when he could have saved them (paralleling that scene in the first movie where he saved everyone in that burning building).

    "Perseverance through adversity for the sake of others" was done much better in Spider-Man 2 because of this, because there was actual personal stake directly linked to his choosing of being Spider-Man (or not). In Homecoming, his only real sacrifice was his high-tech suit. The "adversity" of the concrete wasn't real, and merely served a more metaphorical form of adversity, an empty metaphor at that. We KNEW he was going to get out of that concrete. That's a given. There's no way Marvel would have killed off Spider-Man so early. In Spider-Man 2, however, the "adversity" was his responsibility to the people of New York getting in the way of his happiness. It's an adversity that still exists even when MJ chooses to be with him. Look at the final shot of the movie, when MJ looks towards Spidey swinging away in doubt. She's happy now, but there's also doubt for the future, because she knows Peter's heroism would now get in between them from now on.

    His choice of heroism, that's the real adversity of Spider-Man and it has always been the case where Spider-Man's messiah complex getting in the way of Peter's happiness.

    No, it's not. Let's agree to disagree on this point, because I think we'll be going at it all day what we consider to be superficial or not. I find his sense of humor to be a trivial point at best. In fact, it might even have been a contrived insertion meant to sell the books back in the day, as you say, "provide some levity and fun for the reader." That's it. It's not meant to turn this character into the goofy clown we know today.

    Here's something I read in a review a while ago that strikes me as true - Spider-Man has become a jerk in the comics in recent years. He doesn't take anything seriously. Go back and read the Stan Lee/Ditko run of Spider-Man comics. He might have thrown a joke or two in there, but he never made light of every single life-or-death situation the way he does today. That is what I consider to be a soft-retcon.

    I would even go further to say that everything in Spider-Man 2 had a point, including its humor. Nothing was added for the sake of merely entertainment, and (at the risk of sounding like a biased fanboy) that's the genius of an auteur like Sam Raimi. Everything in Spider-Man 2 was there to progress the plot and character. And that's important, because people tend to forget why Spidey's sense of humor can be so... compelling. It's because he jokes in the face of adversity, in the face of angst.

    In Homecoming, that angst was dialed down a lot, therefore diluting the point of such humor in the first place. Because if there's no conflict, and if there's no angst, you miss the point of this important trait of Peter Parker, and we couldn't see that Peter would rise above his torment and problems to still keep a lighthearted face, smiling 'till the end.
     
    #16 ReymousFumes, Jun 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2018
  17. Novaire

    Novaire Serial Editor
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    I did write another lengthy response, but in the interest of me not having to wake up to write more about Spider-Man, I'm going to save us both the time and effort and just not post it. The win is yours. Next time we de-rail a thread to argue about superheroes, I'm thinking early 90's Darkhawk. :p

    In the pursuit of healing, I think we can meet in the middle and say that Spider-Man is pretty cool.

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. ReymousFumes

    ReymousFumes Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Nerd
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    Yeah, he is. Certainly not just a hero for 13 years olds like some have indicated... :whistle:

    Can I just say one last thing? I think the theme of Spider-Man got sidetracked a little bit in Homecoming by the inclusion of Tony Stark/Iron Man. Because of Iron Man's presence, Homecoming became this coming of age story where a boy tries to prove himself to be a man by gaining the approval of his mentor. I think that's why Spider-Man 2 worked better as a Spider-Man movie for me because it didn't have such a selfish and uncompelling message like that, that you need to prove yourself to be somebody. Rather, the old-fashioned idea of heroism and self-sacrifice in spite of your unhappiness is closer to the ideal of Spider-Man for me, and that's what Spider-Man 2 was about.

    I think Aunt May's speech summed this up very well:
    "He knows a hero when he sees one. Too few characters out there, flying around like that, saving old girls like me. And Lord knows, kids like Henry need a hero. Courageous, self-sacrificing people, setting examples for all of us. Everybody loves a hero. People line up for them, cheer them, scream their names. And years later, they'll tell how they stood in the rain for hours just to get a glimpse of the one who taught them how to hold on a second longer. I believe there's a hero in all of us, that keeps us honest, gives us strength, makes us noble, and finally allows us to die with pride, even though sometimes we have to be steady, and give up the thing we want the most. Even our dreams."
     
  19. Kuze

    Kuze Heaven's not enough
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    Looks refreshing. I watched for the music though.
     
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  20. OctalKey

    OctalKey 100% Polyester
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    Good trailer. I would like for Spider-Verse to be huge, not just "here is your waifu Gwen and your little brother Miles, audience, now give us your money"

    Who knows, maybe the "Into The" part is setting the frame for a pseudo-Spider-Verse narrative that'll be explored in the future? I dunno.

    Cottonmouth and Shaoilin Fantastic are in it and that's good enough for me to pay for the ticket.
     
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