Fantasy Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by KT Samurai, Dec 21, 2017.

  1. KT Samurai

    KT Samurai The Peacemaker
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    Saw this on opening night and had a good time. Felt a bit long, mostly because of the Finn stuff, but overall I enjoyed it.

    What did you guys think?
     
  2. Novaire

    Novaire Serial Editor
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    Crosspost from another thread:

    Outside of that one moment, the first the thing I mentioned in the spoiler column, I'd say it was good. It's a bit of a mixed bag. There's some great stuff, and there's some weird shit. This is the first film in the franchise that is really about failure on the part of the heroes, and that's where I think it's valuable.

    The reaction of some doofuses saying that this is the worst Star Wars film ever made is asinine. Have they not seen Attack Of The Clones, which is seriously one of the most boring movies ever made? Phantom Menace gets more flack, but it has a few great things, even if they're surrounded by stuff that doesn't quite land. The middle entry has Christopher Lee, and nothing else.
     
  3. Neon Walrus

    Neon Walrus Mad Clown Disease
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    I checked it out twice and enjoyed it quite it quite a bit. It definitely falls into my upper favorites when it comes to Star Wars movies.

    My overall appraisal of the Star Wars material from top to bottom is:
    Empire Strikes Back = Return of the Jedi = Clone Wars (CG show)
    Revenge of the Sith = Last Jedi = Rebels (CG show)
    A New Hope = The Force Awakens

    Rogue One is alright, Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones aren't terrible, but they aren't good; pretty much a representation of mediocrity. And a director getting carried away.

    So without spoilers, I like Last Jedi for many of the same reasons I like Revenge of the Sith; it's doing something different and interesting, but it does a great job of retaining that Star Wars feel and vibe. When I watch these movies, it feels the same as when I watch Empire Strikes Back or Return of the Jedi - which is a very good thing.

    Does it have flaws - yes, in fact, I think Force Awakens is a better made movie ( I only have two criticisms for the whole thing) but sometimes it just doesn't feel right. I can't put my finger on it; it has all the ingredients for a good Star Wars movies - and it is good, but there are times where it just doesn't quite feel right.

    While Last Jedi has more flaws, I respect it more because I find it more ambitious as it plays with expectations and explores some great thematic concepts.

    With that, spoiler time:

    What works:

    Overall structure is actually simple, it's two main story lines with a small side story - the chase, the force users and the casino stuff

    Many of the parts that pay tribute to other Star Wars movies, even Revenge of the Sith. I especially like how Luke actually refers to the events of that movie when taking about the downfall of the Jedi. Which brings me to............................

    Some great thematic ideas, particularly failure and learning from it as conveyed in some of the characters. Also, acknowledging the flaws of old structures and methods (even those of the rebellion) and asking how things can be done better. Even the rebellion, which is a movement for the people, is originated and led by "Royalty" as opposed to the people. That's why the movie stresses this idea of "nobodies" coming to save the galaxy instead of having them all connected to old characters. This is further reinforced at the end with the stable child who has force abilities.

    Then both thematic ideas are reinforced with how Luke talks about the failure of the Jedi - a group that became arrogant in the old structure in how they appointed themselves arbiters of moral righteousness, while also being hypocritical. There's definitely more and I could elaborate further, but this is just a quick post about some of my thoughts.

    Most of the characters are very well written, particularly Kylo Ren, Luke Skywalker and Rey (who actually has some flaws here). Poe has a great story arc in that he learns about failure, firstly to admit his failures and learn from them. This is where he learns to see the big picture and become a leader. I also like his dynamic with Leia, It's almost like a Mentor/Apprentice relationship. Luke, Rey and Kylo Ren also learn about failure during their part of the story.

    Even though it was quite long, it was surprisingly well paced.

    The casino planet material, while flawed, was great because it provided a breather aesthetically from the rest of the movie (it was just a different place) but also reinforced the thematic ideas of how flawed their social structure is with war profiteers making all the money - even from the rebellion. How there's a scene where they literally trash the area to reinforce this point. Also, Mark Hamill plays the alien character who mistakes BB-8 for a slot machine and loads him with chips.

    Benicio Del Toro was great - even though his character was underutilized - more on that later.

    Some great action sequences - with space battles and light saber fights.

    Now, some criticisms and even how i would've liked to see these scenes handled:

    Some of the scenes did go on a little longer than they should've, so maybe some extra editing to shave a couple minutes here and there in the movie would've served it.

    A missed opportunity to develop Finn's character with the scenes he was in. Perhaps further exploring him coming to terms with how he was a part of the First Order at one time. Finn is a great character, but I feel that they reduced him to plot device a bit. Thankfully we got a little bit of development near the end during his confrontation with Phasma, however; this wasn't set up too well narratively.

    Benicio Del Toro is severely underutilized; I truly hope we see more of him in the next movie - aside from being an anti-hero that provides some moral ambiguity to the thematic ideas, he's pretty much just a plot device.

    Captain Phasma shafted once again in screen time, shows up, apparently gets killed - although, they could have her on the next movie, I mean if Darth Maul got cut in half and fell down a hole and came back, I think Phasma could survive a fire with her insane armor and pilot an ship to safety. Either way, her scene with Finn wasn't set up too well. I do like how she refers to him by his number though; it's reminiscent of how Agent Smith calls Neo Mr. Anderson.

    Snoke. People can say whatever they want, that as a character, he's irrelevant, that we didn't know much about the Emperor on Return of the Jedi (which isn't true - we learn a fair bit on the original series). But here we are now, the rules have changed. Palpatine had an entire movie about the final phase of his rise to power, so we now know even more. With Snoke, I like how he bit it with the light saber and everything, but I still want to know who he is and where he came from. Thematically, if the movie is railing against this idea that "nobodies" instead of having them connected to old characters, or being "royalty" is what they're trying to do; making Snoke a "nobody" with no origin story undermines this idea. Even a cliched monologue like a bond villain would've improved this.

    Admiral Ackbar and Admiral Holdo - wasted characters. Hear me out on this, Admiral Holdo is a good character, but since there's no emotional connection to this character we've just met, she ends up being made into a disposable character with her kamikaze run - which is a phenomenal scene, but that's all it is - spectacle. I also thought it was kind of silly she didn't tell Poe her plan while telling him to fuck off - the movie still could've gone in the same direction.

    In fact, here's how I'd fix this. It would be both Admiral Ackbar and Admiral Holdo in command after Leia goes into a comma. Poe asks what the plan is, Ackbar tells him, Poe thinks it's a shitty plan; "Those ships are unarmed, what are you thinking? This won't due." Ackbar and Holdo tell him it's not his place and he gets kicked off the bridge. Poe, Finn and Rose still go ahead with their plan. Everything goes along the same way.

    Now, when Leia and Holdo are being escorted to the escape shuttles, Ackbar remains behind to pilot the ship. Here's the thing; we know Ackbar, we were there when he led an attack on the Death Star 2. We know this movie is 30 years after that. That's 30 years of history Leia and Ackbar have shared fighting as comrades. So now, with Ackbar telling Leia that "It's been an honor serving with you, but this is where I my role in this ends." They dialogue for a bit, now it works more on a narrative and emotional level because we know Ackbar.

    Then with the big kamikaze run, instead of it just being a spectacle, now there's a degree of emotion added to it; Ackbar goes out in style. I would even add a tribute to Return of the Jedi where Ackbar bows his head as he puts the ship into light speed - reminiscent of what he did on RTJ when they brought down the super star destroyer. To me, this just makes more sense both thematically and narratively on more levels including an emotional one.

    Then, you'd be left with Admiral Holdo for the next movie instead of wasting her character.

    So, those are my basic thoughts on The Last Jedi and how I feel about it. WhileI find it flawed in a few places, I still like it quite a bit and I respect its ambition and what it's doing.
     
    #3 Neon Walrus, Dec 22, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  4. Tonto-banchou

    Tonto-banchou "Well-Known" Member
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    Last Jedi was the furthest thing from safe and maybe the furthest thing from your typical Star Wars movie, but that's what made it so good. I'm happy Poe got a huge development boost this time. New characters are okay, the Porgs were kinda just... there (phew), and all of Mark Hamill's scenes were full of respect. Great movie, but if JJ 'Competent' Abrams directs the last film, I'm not so sure I'll be as hyped for it. That man can't make a memorable franchise movie to save his life.
     
  5. Struggler

    Struggler Sapient Meat
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    Wish it would be the Last Star Wars because holy shit is it a bad movie.
     
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  6. yoda313

    yoda313 JEDI MASTER
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    Wow didnt catch this the first time: (spoiler!!!)

    https://www.popsugar.com/entertainment/What-Happened-Kids-Temple-Last-Jedi-44374927

    Ill be watching it again on Christmas. I had mixed feelings the first time i saw it. Partlyit was due to me having headaches from the 3d. They definitely made disappointing choices - to my point of view (wink) and to mark Hamill too ha!

    But a second viewing may change some of that feeling (and not in 3d). I do kn8w movie franchises change over time. But it doesn't mean everyone agrees with every change.
     
  7. Captain Picard

    Captain Picard Non mihi, non tibi, sed nobis.
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    SPOILERS BELOW!!!

    I was very disappointed with how The Last Jedi turned out. So much wasted potential, so much build up from "The Force Awakens" in some areas / characters... just to decide not to do anything, too much misplaced humor, cringe-worthy social motifs, poor character development for some major characters, inane plot devices (Finn + Rose arch / relationship).

    I enjoyed the movie overall... but this was the worst Star Wars movie I've ever seen (of the main episodes).
     
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  8. BuddyLee

    BuddyLee Senior Member

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    The lukewarm reaction in this thread is a pretty strong indication of how fans really saw TLJ.

    I went to the theater on opening night. I hate to admit it, as it's actually become something of a shame for me, but I'm loyal to the Star Wars franchise. Because of George Lucas's work in the 1970's, creating one of the greatest movie trilogies of all time, I will eagerly watch whatever Star Wars movie that comes out on the big screen. Until the franchise takes a sharp nose-drive, I'll be excited to watch it.

    This movie has marinated in me for about a month, and over time my opinion has gradually become more solidified on it. When I first left the theater, I had enjoyed a great deal of the movie. One of the most perplexing things about it was the fact that they did so much brilliantly. The acting was top-notch almost across the board, with Kylo Ren stealing the show. The music and CGI were everything you would expect from Star Wars and more.

    In spite of all of that, what really makes a movie memorable was just absent.

    TLJ was incredibly poorly written. It was essentially a very long trip across space, where a few run-down frigates were being chased by a cutting-edge fleet. The characters caused their own problems, which they then had to solve. The characters had extensive conflict between each other, and the writers apparently tried to drive a "What you think is really good is not actually all that good" angle to the story, which makes no sense. It's Star Wars. Didn't multiple planets get destroyed by the enemy in TFA? It's alright for the Rebellion to be good, and the Empire to be bad. The pushed story of the two sides to a story unnecessarily complicated an entertaining battle of good against evil. Star Wars is not about blurred lines between two sides. It's literally a story about the light against the dark.

    Admiral Purplehair from Tumblr and Rose were arguably the worst Star Wars characters since Jar-Jar, but only time will tell because at least Jar-Jar has provided spicy memes some 15 years later. They took Luke the bright-eyed farm boy turned legend, and made him into a useless hermit to make room for new characters. Rey's exceedingly strong control of the Force has yet to be explained, and they even had a young child Force pull a broom at the end of the film, essentially undoing the idea that Jedis need to train for years.

    Lastly one thing that really didn't sit well with me was the weaponized faster than light technology. When Admiral Purplehair utilized it in a space battle, it entirely undermined every space fought battle in the history of the franchise. If FTL could be used that way, Luke's one-in-a-million shot against the Death Star was unnecessary. FTL missiles would exist in vast numbers and manned spacecraft would be completely useless.

    ...On the other hand, again, I was entertained. Choreography was great. Music was great. CGI was great. They just didn't have the foundation to make a movie deserving of the Star Wars name.
     
  9. yoda313

    yoda313 JEDI MASTER
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    @BuddyLee - well one of points about what is good or isnt good kinda goes back to the obi wan - certain point of view - line. So in a sense theyve dealt with that before about lukes father becoming vader.

    I hadn't thought about your point about ramming the ship. Though if you recall the star destroyer plunged into the second death star and it still kept ticking. Whether or not hyperspeed would change that is unknown.

    I do agree as does mark Hamill about luke. Its just a 180 on the character. Say what you will about the prequels but at least you got to see how anakin became vader. Here you get what two flashbacks that are supposed to explain Luke giving up? Granted he comes back to save the day but what an ordeal. All of the force awakens was wasted with the character flip. Your build up is to get the last hope and here he is a loser. Its just so out of character from the other movies.

    My thing with the movie was the length. It should have been shorter. Aldo having flynn and rose away from the main action was really jarring. Like oh well there fying but were over here so forget about it. It was just out of place. It was perfectly in touch when they, finn and rose, were on the destroyer and together on the last outpost.

    And also no alliances showed up? Thst was hard to believe on retrospect. Think about it. If the order was so overpowering it had control over the galaxy again why didnt they have ten times the number of ships sent to wipe out the leaders? And of course they had more fighters then the rebels. Surely they had bombers themselves to launch against the ships. Im just saying they should have had more peril and quicker resolution rather than dragging it out that much.

    im not complaining entirely. But like buddy lee said it wasnt the same rip-roaring good time you expect. Even Empire strikes back had upbeat moments. More importantly it was more concise. Imagine if chewie had to steal a shuttle and fly off to kashhyk to get a wookie buddy to break han out but still be too late. You'd have this whole side adventure that would drag out the movie.

    Again im not totally ripping the last jedi. Its just too different too soon. Also killing off the main cast intentionally isnt good. Harrison ford wanted that since Empire strikes back so you couldn't avoid it. But luke too? Sure you get his ghost but it's not the same.

    UGH. Though at least they arent pissing into trees on camera and f bombing every two seconds. Thats what has me worried about quintin tarentino maybe doing star trek. Its ok if its violent but leave the swearing and uber gross stuff out of my scifi please.
     
  10. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    I watched this film recently. I saw all the bad press about it and I was thinking "okay whatever" I was going to watch it eventually anyway. There were nutcases saying that feminists and SJWs had destroyed Star Wars. What? Okay, if they were complaining about the writing, I would agree with them because the story itself was kinda poor. In no way was the franchise geared toward feminists. Star Wars has ALWAYS had strong female characters like Princess Leia, Queen Amadala and so on. The resistance was always led by a woman... Leia. What the hell is wrong with people?

    I did not like the turn that Luke's character took. If he thought that Ben was turning to the dark side, considering that he saw the good in his own father, I think he would most likely try to reach him, not think about killing him. It saddened me that they took all of his values and turned them upside down.

    I was hoping that Rose had died that time when she was injured. I never cared less about a character in this franchise. Oh and that code breaker guy was another friggen idiot. I hated him, not because he was an ass, but because he wasn't even all that good at being an ass.
     
  11. Kaynil

    Kaynil Senior Member

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    Mark Hamill himself has retracted most of his views after, even if you want to chalk it to peer pressure it is worth mentioning this.

    One of the issues for me was the purple haired lady, I felt her measures just made no sense. Why hide the plan? How come everyone else on the ship acted as if nothing? Leia and her sharing that "just as planned" moment to humiliate the pilot was one of peak cringy moments for me. I felt like the movie really wanted me to bond with the purple haired lady because her sacrifice just didn't have that impact for me.

    I don't have as much of a problem with the decisions taken. I think Rey and him got clear arcs. Luke was haunted and running away from his past by shunning the force. He was looked upon as this elevated hero but he was still a person, yet in the end, he did what he was avoiding and got involved. He visited her sister, gave us a kickass show and became one with the force. Rey and by extension a lot of us expected some grandeur revelation to her origin. I think the notion of knowing deep inside what is really going on but because we're unable to accept it we cover it with false hope, is very human. She wanted her origins to define her persona and near the end, she finally accepts her worst fears and that lets her move on towards what matters to her in the present. Personally, I don't take that little conversation with Kylo Ren as a confirmation of anything, after all, he was trying to dissuade her to his side. I think it is not completely out of the possibilities that they sweep the rug from our feet and reveal her actual origins better aligned with what the fans were expecting, the difference is that by now Rey won't be haunted nor feel it has to define her. It might become another fork in her path but as she was during most of this movie and before, she would have no inner compass to resist the implications. Or maybe nothing happens and we just continue seeing her grow by her own efforts.

    The Finn casino scene I agree it was dragged out but I liked how it ended up aligning well with the other plot. I wanted more of a fight rather than the comedic relief we got with the rivalry of the ex-friend. And Leia use of the force to rescue herself, yeah, it was kind of the blue to me. For a lady that didn't seem to actively use the force it is a bit of a stretch she could do a feat like that, however, I am okay accepting it, after all, it is to remark just how strong the force runs in the family.
     
  12. yoda313

    yoda313 JEDI MASTER
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    @Kaynil - i agree with your points. I think it hurt the film being as long as it was. Its not typical for star wars and it felt like bits could have been left out or rearranged.

    Fyi its on streaming march 13 and disc 24th. Im pretty sure those arethe dates. Might be a bit off. Fyi it will be disneys first uhd 4k release. No mention if 3d will be included in that pack or be a separate release. I have two copies of force awakens thanks to the 3d release coming half a year later.
     
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  13. BuddyLee

    BuddyLee Senior Member

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    I think the big red flag was when JJ Abrams said disliking the new franchise meant you were probably "threatened" by female characters.

    I mean, I understand that they wanted to branch out and give a female lead the reins, and in that regard I have no complaints. Daisy Ridley is a fantastic main actress. I just don't like that to make her a badass, they made her a character who can just do everything, and has no real flaw or depth to her. Luke Skywalker was a great character because he stumbled, fumbled, and finally somehow when the time was right had his moments. He went through big steps before his final confrontation with Vader and if it weren't for Obiwan, Han Solo, and Leia saving his ass left and right, he never would have made it there.

    On the other hand, the male characters in this new franchise all kind of just suck. Finn is a coward and while his core story is good it's clear he's way behind in the back seat (while Han Solo still shined despite being a supporting character), they removed Han Solo from the story after barely any screentime (all of which he was being showed up by Rey), they removed Luke Skywalker and disgraced his legacy to push Rey up again, Poe became a bumbling nitwit which sucks because he was actually a great character, and they just gave all of the heroics to female characters who didn't even exist last year.

    Strong female characters have always existed in Star Wars, as you say. I never had a problem with that--I think movies need more strong female characters. I just don't think they need to be built out of the charred remains of the legends from before.
     
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  14. Shannon Apple

    Shannon Apple Sour Apple
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    Everything you mentioned is just proof of such poor writing, to be honest.

    Finn ran away from the First Order because he was soft hearted, and a bit of a coward too. Rather than try to bring it down from the inside somehow, he took the opportunity to run. So, of course he was a total coward. What I did want to see is him growing more as a person. I liked that he had his weaknesses, but I wanted to see him grow in the company of "real" people. He didn't really have real relationships with other people. He was kinda bred to kill things. They just didn't deliver on him. He's still a likeable guy and he connected somewhat with the audience. I did care about what happened to him at least. That's something.

    Rey's character is kinda shallow. If Daisy Ridley wasn't such a great actress, I don't think I'd have anything good to say about that movie at all.

    The supporting female characters suck too, not just the guys. That Asian chick, I can't even remember her name, she was such a poor character. When she may or may not have died, I was like... oh well. I didn't care either way. I think she may have been the worst character out of the whole thing.
     
  15. Oh Snape

    Oh Snape House Bantsratheon
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    They Naratood the fuck out of this one. Main character way out for their depth and no hope of last minute rescue? 'Its ok, here's a hax. You are clearly angry so this boost in power levels makes sense and is consistent with the world.'

    And the whole Kylo/Rey arc just reeks of Naruto/Sass kay all over again.

    Rey: 'Come back to the light'
    kylo: No.
    Rey: Come back to light.
    Kylo: No
    Rey: Why no come back to light?
    Kylo; Don't want.

    *penultimate scene of series*

    Rey; Come oooooooooooooooooon, come back to the light. Pretty please with cherry on top?
    Kylo: Oh go on then, if you put it like that.........

    Also some of the actions by the rebels were super stupid. purple Haired Lady - waits for half the escaping pods to be destroyed before deciding flying into that big ass ship taking up all the screen is a better option than waiting for said big ass ship to light up everything including her. And Rose..............stops Fin doing something useful because the vague crush she had on him is now full blown love? WAT.

    Also, cgi Yoda? Get the fuck out of here.

    I liked the stuff you didn't have to think about though.
     
  16. BuddyLee

    BuddyLee Senior Member

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    Finn's decision to risk his life to rescue Poe and get away from the Empire was heroic, in my honest opinion. He had his doubts in the first movie, which made sense. He was concerned about not only his safety, but Rey's. Of course, the same argument can kind of be made for TLJ, where he was trying to go and see her again, but I think they've pushed his cowardice too far. I can barely identify with the guy as a character at this point.

    I agree that the characters in general suck, but looking back at the movie, basically everything that was done right was done by a woman. Admiral Purplehair confused me as a character because she refused to tell anyone of her intentions, yet when the time was right, she made the ultimate sacrifice to save everyone. In the meantime the legend Admiral Ackbar was given an unceremonious death that was essentially off screen.

    What happened was JJ Abrams has made very clear that he wanted to make cool, strong, and heroic female characters, so he focused excessively on giving them all of their moments. I'm not going to lie, as the original trilogy and then the prequels were generally male-oriented, and I'm happy to see the new franchise swing the other way. But the original trilogy never brought down female characters to give male characters a chance to prove themselves. Han Solo's rescue was equally thanks to Leia that it was to Luke.

    Whether it's incompetence or neglect, I don't know. It was just disappointing how disposable they made the male characters. The only good one in the whole movie was Kylo Ren, who I'll admit is portrayed fantastically. He's probably the only reason I'll watch Episode 9 at this point.
     
  17. Griffmeister

    Griffmeister What the hell are you staring at?
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    Am I the only one that thought that there was some potential in the fight scene between Ren and Stimp... uh I mean Rey? After the little trick with the light saber Ren proposed joining forces, so to speak, to create a new order. With Rey’s cooperation they could have made a new order that was neither Empire or Rebel. Of course I suppose that would screw up the storyline.
     
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  18. Oh Snape

    Oh Snape House Bantsratheon
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    Yeah nobody wants a rom com where Ren flips out and gets all light sabery on a dishwasher.
     
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  19. BuddyLee

    BuddyLee Senior Member

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    I don't think they want the same thing. Kylo Ren wants order throughout the galaxy, but he wants to be the one who decides what that is. Rey on the other hand wants... well, uh, I don't actually know what she wants. But I'm pretty sure it's well detached from being a tyrant.
     

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