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Discussion in 'Film & Television' started by OctalKey, Jun 2, 2017.
Did you just assume the director's gender?
Did you just mansplain me?
Did you just assume MY gender???
Set a box office record for a female director.
I believe the WWI angle was a means to explain how Diana, a sheltered girl, suddenly realizes that man is not as good as she believed them to be, but that there should be faith placed into them anyways, because they are capable of love. The "horrors of war" idea you have may be more fitting for something like Hacksaw Ridge. This film seemed more to be on the theme of crushing stereotypes and promoting diversity, with the message of love and peace added in for flavor at the end, y'know, to keep things family-friendly.
Yeah, the Amazon fights were violent and the victims
of the gas attacks were also an implication of the "horrors of war"
but compared to everything else they don't seem to matter as much, and they shouldn't because this film isn't trying to focus on being a social commentary on the horrors of war, it's a super-hero film about empowerment, diversity, and love.
You're sort of exaggerating by saying an hour and a half was people being torn apart.
It was implied she had more power to her...and she showed it at the end. Not much of an ass-pull in my opinion, as it was foreshadowed.
I find it funny that you come away explaining this movie as "naïve girl gets educated about war being bad" and I see it as "female empowerment and the promotion of diversity".
Was it a good weird or a bad weird? I will point out that the movie was designed so the actual identity of the villain was revealed in a twist,
but there only ever was a single villain that the film kept repeating, with Dr. Morrow and the German dude added in to complicate the identity of the villain.
You still believe the film didn't know who the main villain was going to be...when y'know his name was repeated over and over...?
Also, I think you know this already, but the director is a woman.
Ehhh but it felt really forced. The whole Aries angle was done very poorly. There was nothing tangeable about his existence until the very end. In fact, the movie would've been pretty much exactly the same without him.
LOL and you see nothing wrong with that? XD
KT would disagree with you there lol
Yeah, but only at the last minute when it makes the least sense.
I have to really agree with how @Harlequinn put it...
There was just a lot of unnecessary and forced plot points towards the end.
The whole misdirect with the german dog and doctor poison was entirely unnecessary and wasted on Diana. It would have been far more interesting had they been Steve Trevor's enemies.
It's a subjective thing then, because I believe that the twist was done better since there wasn't definite proof of his existence until the climax. I disagree with your other point as well, because without Diana's belief that mankind was inherently good and Ares was corrupting them, I don't think Diana's drive to leave the island and save mankind would have been as believable of a plot device.
No, why would I find something inherently true as a problem? "ekks dee"
That's his prerogative. If he wanted to share his own ideas of the theme of the movie he's free to.
Not really last minute when it was explained in the beginning that Amazons were created to temper mankind (promoting peace and love), from beginning to end there was tons of diversity in the portrayal of the characters (diversity in casting), and the beginning of the movie is entirely devoted to the empowerment of women all the way up to the end (literally all of the Amazons and Diana's actions).
What do you mean it makes the least sense? Sure the ending was corny, but it sure was telegraphed from the beginning.
"Unnecessary" when they were utilized as red herrings...I think this is another subjective thing. If this movie is about Wonder Woman, and she's hunting Ares, why the hell would her male sidekick get the majority of the villains in the film for himself? Why would these villains not be utilized as red herrings since the reveal of Ares was meant to be shocking? "Wasted on Diana" when the entire film is about her fighting Ares, whether he be in the form of a plague doctor or a warmonger.
Smh I don't get you.
It's good enough to counter humanity's inherent barbarity.
As a reasonable audience member, I thought she was facing the main bad guy during the fight on top of the watch tower, but clearly the film wasn't going to be as simple as that. There were doubts, but with no other characters aside from those two as red herrings as to who the villain was, who was the audience going to reasonably assume Ares was?
It's easy to say "you really got fooled into thinking those chumps were the bad guy?!" but as an audience member who didn't truly know any better, what else could we do but assume they were? Now do you understand me?
Okay, first off the Germans weren't Nazis, they were Germans. This is WWI, buddy.
Secondly, Steve Trevor's backstory would be shafted if
he didn't end up crash-landing on the island and introducing Diana to the realm of men
. In your fiction, you're sacrificing faithfulness to the comics to the development of a villain who got enough about him spouted to us from the exposition.
Steve's death represented humanity being capable of great love and great courage, which makes Diana realize that humanity really does deserve her heroism. Having Steve die was necessary, especially since Chris Pine still has the ability to be in more DC movies due to his contract, which means there may be more Steve Trevor in the future.
I think you're getting the meaning of "empowerment" wrong. You're free to your opinion as to what this film should have been.
Seems like a stretch.
So talk about what you thought was bad about the exposition.
He had a payload that held the yield of a nuke. Blowing that up on the ground would be devastating to the environment and the surrounding people, having it all explode and then incinerating the toxins in the sky made SOME sort of sense, in my opinion.
I'd say there needs to be more symbolism than "Goddess beats super-villain and proclaims herself hero of humanity". Like how Doomsday represented oppressive male forces and Wonder Woman represented strong, independent females in that scene where he smacked her to the ground and she gave him a "that all you got?" face.
Idk man... If my life came down to being capable of love as my only good defining quality, I'd be saying my goodbyes. lol
You're right. It was definitely telegraphed from the beginning. Sadly, not even Zeus was capable of stopping that tragedy
I never once bought the idea that dr poison or the warmonger were going to be her main enemies... I mean honestly, did you? They were cheap knockoffs of a real villain. A barely developed chick with a fetish for gassing people, and a shitty nazi officer who was barely respected by anyone to begin with and got his powers from shooting up on Marvel's leftover sweat. And you thought that Diana, Wonder fucking woman, was going to face those assclowns as a final boss? LOL
Now I don't understand you, smh.
Though in their defense... they got more development than Aries did...
WHICH is why he was such a shitty villain. Reminded me of Galactus from fantastic four 2, or that yellow blob guy from Green Lantern. A barely developed villain who gets hyped up the whole movie only to be a mess of a character towards the end, just long enough for the hero to have a cool fight scene.
If it were me who was writing the story... I would have
Made Aries the one who invaded Themyscira, not nazi's. He would have killed a couple Amazons, only to get blocked by General Antiope, who then gets killed in front of Diana. But by then, Aries has been surrounded by hundreds of Themyscira's finest warriors, and is forced to make a hasty retreat. This would give Aries much more development as the badass he is..
Then we can spend the next hour or so of the movie about the same as what happened.. Diana gets to see the horrors of war, what Aries has done.. But we as an audience also get to see it.
We finally get to the end, Steve and the merry band of racist stereotypes go off on their own side quest to fight Dr. Poison and Captain Germany. I probably would have killed off a couple of the members before taking out Steve.. Starting with Chief, transitioning into a sad scene with Charlie with something like "you can't die, you have to sing for us when we win", he of course dies anyways. Then moving on to Steve who takes out Captain Germany with a nice big explosion. (seriously, why the hell did he need the plane to get rid of the gas? If it burns, then set a grenade and fucking run.)
At this point, the mixture of the deaths all around Diana, plus the seemingly hopeless battle against Aries, causes her to fall to her knees in unbelief and total shock. Aries goes on to his little speech about how he did very little and this was all humanity's fault. Preferably with a little more smug evilness, and a lot less old british dude. We can still have the big reveal that he was actually Sir Patrick this whole time, but maybe with just a little bit of shape shifting please..
Then she can go full godkiller mode and kick his ass, empowerment yay. But not because humanity deserves it for something as silly as being "capable of love", but rather because she herself is tired of the bloodshed. Realizing that heroes like Steve, Charlie, Chief, Antiope.. They're dying every day, but the war is still waging. So she resolves in herself to end that war, no matter the cost, starting with taking out Aries.
Then instead of a speech about love at the end when we see her in the future.. We hear a speech about how there is an undeniable darkness in all of us, a war constantly waging.. And in the midst of that darkness, a total fucking badass is going to stand and fight against it. Now that's empowerment
I know what you're thinking, "that sounds a lot like what actually happened" - and you'd be right. I never said that the ending was total garbage. But that it fell flat. If it had stuck with the theme of war, and dropped the Disney Princess "love is the ultimate superpower" shtick, and developed Aries more as a villain, it would have been a far greater movie IMO.
Is it tho?
I never said he didn't crash land there.. Just that the ones chasing him wasn't the Germans, but Aries.
Who could have been on one of the German ships with a ton of German soldiers, I don't really care.. buuuut...
I think we're starting to get to the core of the problem here.
But was telling me this also necessary?
Yeah, I know he needed to die.... But the way he died was as @Harlequinn put it...
You know what plot armor is? Steve had the opposite of that...
As if the entire movie was going to bend and warp to serve the single purpose of killing him, whether that method made sense or not.
By all means, kill him. I fully expected that to happen the minute that photo was taken. But if you're going to kill him, at least have it make sense.
Steve fighting an impossible enemy that is 10x stronger than he is, that is a valid reason to go blow yourself up.
Steve flying a plane get rid of some poison gas when he is literally in enemy territory and only has to avoid blowing up 4 fucking people, one of whom is near indestructible... Forgive me if I felt like that was a little forced.
How would you define it?
The fact that there was exposition :|
You gotta remember... this isn't a nuke.. There's no radioactive fallout.. No shrapnel... No destructive wave of energy. It's a gas that is burned. Meaning it's just a bigass fireball. Like I said, he could have literally just set a grenade and ran like hell... Or better yet, got all of his guys on the plane and then dropped the grenade on the gas from the sky. There are dozens if not hundreds of possible things he could have done to not die. That's why personally I feel like the low budget villains were wasted on WW's awesomeness, when they could have been better served as an overwhelming and suspenseful villain for Steve. And it would have given far more ways for him to die without it feeling so forced.
So then what about the ending did you find symbolic? Was it the "power of love" part?
1. Wonder Woman's a babe, but there weren't any lingering shots of her booty. Just her kicking ass.
2. Men in movies usually do poor takes on women and feminism (except if you're George "Mad Max" Miller). Every bit of dialogue has to be about the gender wars, or about how women are so much better than the men. But in WW, everyone was on equal grounds. No one really made a big deal out of Diana being a girl in the war. There was the initial shock, sure, but no one drew much attention to it.
I also don't usually think about the director's gender when watching films, but with WW, it made all the difference. What I loved about it was that it wasn't about a woman proving she could fight just as well as her male counterparts, or that it wasn't just about a woman leading a superhero movie. It was just a straight-up action movie that just so happened to star a woman.
Gal Gadot is fucking hot.
Please use the fucking spoiler tags. I personally don't care because I don't care about the movie. But there are plenty of those who do and hasn't seen it. Please refer to the forum's FAQ regarding spoilers. I only edited a a few posts, but there are many more. If this movie came out 10 years ago, I wouldn't make such a fuss about it, but it just got released.
Stop ruining things for others because you're lazy and inconsiderate; use the tags.
my bad. I fixed my posts.
I still think the villains should not have been Steve's enemies since he is not the main character.
The plane scene made perfect sense to me.
I never said I found the ending symbolic.
Well said. I personally love media where a character isn't ascribed entirely to the feature that stands out most for them, like being a woman or being homosexual. to name a couple examples. A character "who is ____ but happens to be ____" is something I can always appreciate.
Thanks for replying.
Sorry, I sincerely forgot and/or did not believe I was spoiling. Inconsiderate, maybe unwittingly, but lazy? Nah.
Also isn't the title good enough as a disclaimer against spoilers within the thread? I ask this for future reference in case I make the same mistake I did here.
You never included the spoiler tag in the title--I had to do that for you guys because you weren't using the tags in the first place.
Also, discussing character deaths and plot development are big red flags for spoiler tags. I'm sincerely sorry for assuming you knew what spoiler material is.[/SPOILER]
Yes, Steve is not the main character.. But the warmonger and Dr.Poison are not the main villains either. As it stands, their only reason to exist was to try and "throw us off" from the real villain. Which could have just as easily been done without wasting them on Diana. (though I'd still have preferred Aries to have more presence than he did)
The Side Villains vs Diana = 5 seconds of action, with a villain against an overwhelming hero.
The Side Villains vs Steve = 15 minutes of suspense, with a hero against an overwhelming enemy.
Which would you have rather seen? See what I'm saying?
I tried to avoid it where I could in this thread. Thanks for adding the tag to the thread title and for editing the couple spoilers I did accidently reveal.